Does my son have to go to Kabouterhuis?

Democratic school

About the Dutch system: people can start there own school. There are al lot of restrictions, but the idea is that it should be possible for parents to find an school that is suatable for the education vision of parents. A democratic school is a rather new experience, a school that gives a lot of freedom and possibility's for children to decide what the child wants to do.
Is it a private school? A private school means that the governement does not support the school and parents have to pay for it. The governement pays for a school if the concept, the organisation, the number of pupils and the level of the teachers are checked and found oke. In the Netherlands schooleducation is free for children till 18 years.

For more information:
https://www.democratischescholen.nl/
And for the discussion about the concept: in 2018 there are some articles in newspapers that are very critical:
https://www.vn.nl/democratische-scholen/
https://www.ed.nl/veldhoven/kritiek-op-democratische-school-veldhoven-mijn-dochter-heeft-daar-niets-geleerd~ad7474d8/

Allthough the concept looks very nice, maybe this experiment is not the best start for your child.
I would not risk my childs development for such an experiment.

Tsjor

Limi,

Yes. He is constantly explained and told
not to continue when the behavior is offensive to others.

I read in the non violent communication parenting, on one of the case study.

It was about a girl who was aged 8 or 9. She came home upset from school. Her mom did not know that she was upset. Only after when she came to the dinner table, she threw the plate full of food. The immediate reaction of the mother was not to shout and punish the daughter or start cleaning the thrown plate but to recognize the daughter's anger by first sitting down with her. The daughter was so angry that first she did not want to speak. So the mother had to cuddle her, make her sit on her lap. Eventually the child opened up and started sharing about her anger at school. After the daughter felt she was heard, she relaxed, and the mother started cleaning.

I understand spitting at someone is not nice but the way I have been addressing the issue is for my son to share with me why he got angry. And then asking him what steps we can do together to not express anger in that way.

There have been improvements so we don't see him expressing anger with a spit. But in Dutch speaking environment the spit came out because he could
not explain his emotion in the language that the teacher can understand.

In addition from the report I noticed that the teacher may lack a decent level of making observations because she missed out important points in the report.

I agree AnneJ.
However if we cannot find an environment that does not suit my son, or he cannot adjust, going home is not an option (due to radiation issue), but we may need to move within the country or outside the country.

At this moment we have not exhausted all options so will continue to research and try out the options.

It is important to keep our minds positive. So knowing that we will not be stuck with an option my son and us parents are not in agreement with, helps me to keep moving forward.

Second language

'However, it is from the age of 6, and not a school but a language class outside school hours?'The way a school organizes special education for children who don't speak dutch is very different at a school. It depends on how many children there are and what kind of experience a school has with education in second languages.
It might be that a school decides to start with special education form the age of 6, because the children from 4 and 5 do not learn language by teachers and lessons, but they learn it fast by playing with other children, listening to the teacher, singing songs etc. Implicit learning is better for the language than explicit learning. For children. For adults, there is still al lot of discussion.
At the age of 6 children start leraning to read and write. For children with dutch as a second language, this might be something that needs extra attention.
If the lessons are during normal schooltime, and in or outside the school is something that a school can deside how to organise.
If a school has some system for education in second language, than they have at least attention en some experience with children who don't speak dutch.
I'd think that is at least one point.
If the school is payed by the governement, then you can save a lot of money and use that for other things for your child, like music education, sport playing chess or something like that. In the Netherlands 'payed by the governement' does not mean the governement has aproved the concept etc. It may be that the school has a board that is not governemental. Only 'public' schools have a board that is governemental. Other schools are what we call 'bijzonder'. Translated it would say 'special', but 'special'= speciaal means in our system that a school is ment for children with special needs (fysical problems, or behavioral problems or learning problems). Parents van't get there child on a 'speical' school. They have to try a 'normal' school first and then get a lot of documents from school and specialist that confirm the need for a special school for this child.

Tsjor

Input

AnneJ gives information that is coloured by her own experience with children with special needs (autism for example). It is usefull if you are convinced that your child has special needs. Or if specalists and reports from school think your child has some problems, more problems than just the language.

Tsjor

Not popular

This remark wil not make you popular: 'You must understand, my son sleeps super well, eats organic wholesome food, no processed food, eating out in the restaurant is once in every 2 months, no junk food, etc. It's hard to compare with other children, who have eye circles, who eat crackers or bread for breakfast and lunch.'

Most of the Dutch children eat bread for breakfast and lunch.
Do our children have eye-circles?

Most children sleep very well, eating in a restaurant is very special (once a year if there is a special occasion), junk food is not the daily food and most of the parents make fress food every day.

For us it is normal that a child aged 4 has a problem with sitting still, and crys (a short period) when parents leave. Other behaviors you describe would worry us, thinking there is a serious problem with the child (like ADHD, autism etc.). If you think there is a connection with his food, then maybe you should try to make a change in his foodprogram. Lack of vitamin D and/or B12 causes often behavioral problems.

Tsjor

Japan

'What makes this situation tough is trying to fit my son in the Dutch school system in which I believe it's like trying to fit yourself in a small hole in which you don't want to be in. But you are left with no choice because by Dutch law you have to go once you are that age.'
If this is the way you look at the schoolsystem in the netherlands, than you will have a problem as long as your son is living in this land. Is there a great difference with Japan?
The law that obliges children to go to school started in 1901, to protect children against working in fabrics. There is an ongoing discussion about the question if it is an obligation to go to school or to learn (that should allow hometeaching). You can find more about it on this website: https://www.thuisonderwijs.nl/. It is not an easy way to go. The possibility is limited.
My personal opinion is that letting a child go to school (trying to fit in the small hole in which you don't want to be) is the first step for a parent to realise that your child should find his own way in society and that you, being a parent, are not the only person for your child to help him find his/her own way. The child gets a life of his own, more and more out of the reach of the parents. I think it is good and necessary if you want your child to become an adult that can find his/her own way in society.
When I brougt my first child to school, I felt tears: do you (school) realize what a diamant you get? I was reluctant to leave him there. At the age of 4, it became obsvious that it was too much for him, so he started only in the morning. But after a couple of weeks he wanted to go the whole day and I saw him getting his own experiences and his own way of dealing with problems. I got confidence in my child: he could handle it. I supported my children if the problems were to big for them to handl, but I realized that they had to find there own way.
Now they're adults, living in different city's, having satisfying work, good relations and a life of there own. What more can you wish?

Tsjor

Still baffled

You know, I'd let a child of 8 or 9 clean up their own mess, not give them a cuddle and do it for them.

You can do this all quite non-violently, by the way, and I'm sure it would be a lot more effective with regard to preventing it from occurring again. So no, that is not a philosophy I'd follow. It being in a book means nothing.

As for spitting, that is much worse than simply not nice. Why does this child become so angry so often? That he regularly feels he needs to spit, or throw toys? It doesn't come across as though he can function in any setting outside the house. Or in any setting in which things do not go to his liking. He's too old for that to be normal. But in any type of school in any country he is going to have to.

He does remotely remind me of my nephew, who cannot behave himself in company because he is never effectively corrected, as well being told since baby-time he's gifted (parental judgement only), and never subjected to groups or any activity outside the home until he was 4 except Christmas dinners (no preschool, no baby gymnastics, etc.) Any disruptive behaviour is explained by his parents as "he's so smart" instead of them seeing that even smart kids need behavioural instructions. Mine are smarter, yet they would not throw toys at a dog like my nephew, simply because they were corrected as a toddler.

But at least he can function tolerably in a school in the sense that they haven't referred him out yet.

There really is a lot of room to be fidgety in kindergarten. I doubt that the school system is a problem.

Not popular

Dear Tsjor,

I appreciate your input.

However, I am not trying to get popular with my remarks.
I am just simply stating my thoughts and observation.

"This remark wil not make you popular: 'You must understand, my son sleeps super well, eats organic wholesome food, no processed food, eating out in the restaurant is once in every 2 months, no junk food, etc. It's hard to compare with other children, who have eye circles, who eat crackers or bread for breakfast and lunch.'"

I am stating my observations with food intake. He also takes extra vitamin D and A in the form of cod liver oil during the winter season, and on a weekly basis, he eats organ meat with high Vitamin A on a daily basis.

I don't agree with you on this statement :
"Most children sleep very well, eating in a restaurant is very special (once a year if there is a special occasion), junk food is not the daily food and most of the parents make fress food every day."

This may be the definition of fresh food that may differ in your terms and my terms.
For example, I often hear the Dutch saying that they cooked fresh food for their families. When asking what it is, they say pasta. Whether pasta is nutritious or not depends on how you made the pasta. How did you prepare the pasta itself? Did you use the pre-made dried pasta? On special occasions, I do use pre-made dried pasta for the convenience but not for nutritious purpose.

This is simply one example. But preparation and cooking fresh food don't mean the child is getting enough nutrition.

Children with eye-circle are something I noticed with my observation. It doesn't mean all Dutch children have eye-circles. However, it also means that all children do not have eye circles.

The basis of my cooking and preparing food has derived from macrobiotic, and have been recently inspired by Weston Price.

I am very happy for you that you feel this: "Now they're adults, living in different city's, having satisfying work, good relations and life of there own. What more can you wish?"

The difference

Arguments that you're son eats only organic food is frowned upon by a lot of 'regular' adults. They believe you to not be a pragmatic thinking 'normal' adult but a someone who believes in fairytales and nonsens. Too idealistic to giveyou''re child a 'normal' upbringing.
As is your idea of non violent resistance. See the post of Limit, no pun intended, but children should be told 'no' and if they are frustrated and can't restrict themselves than you have to intervene. If they keep doing it you are at fault, you're parenting skills lack.
So you better not discuss parenting and methods of discipline.
In some circles, especially in care and education where people can be rather conservative and strict with backword ideas about uprbringing, you can be frowned upon as a weak and neglecting parent. Henceforth the observation that father did 'nothing'. Nothing being did not discipline son talking strict and mad at him and make him feel small, cry and apologize with a small voice.
Ignorant indeed.
Parents with more educated skills or arguments that can differ are found in the 'Vrije School'. But you may know that some people frown upon Antroposofie what is the idea behind these schools.
So, it depends who you are talking too. And don''t suggest your'e foodideas are superior, some will believe them to be hysterical.
And bread with cheese is a normal fooditem in the Netherlands among all groups, except vegans. If you reject this you are seen as on a high horse yourself where you can have very good reasons to consider bread not the first choice of food but you make yourself stand out of the rest. The overly idea in the Netherlands is: act normal. Having advanced ideas around food is seen as eccentric in most circles.
Of course there are parents that make these sort of food mistakes, pasta is fresh and nutricious. But it can be, it depends on the vegetables how and how many you put in there. And pasta can also be whole grain.
If you position yourself like this, people may react antagonistic towards you.

Maybe

"However, I am not trying to get popular with my remarks.
I am just simply stating my thoughts and observation."

But there is a problem with your child and not with his Dutch fellow pupils. They can be alone in the classroom. The do not spit on the floor or throw with toys (well some will probably do).

You son's actions have nothing to do with the eating habits of Dutch children. Also judging another countries eating habits is not very kind. After all we do try to help you and offer you our insights and ideas

Did you check if there are any school around with a class for foreign children.

If you would live in my city I could suggesr you a school immediately. I see foreign children cycling to this school every day.

Food and behaviour

The relation between food and behaviour sounds logical but can be proven to be difficult to prove. Hence the discussions around it.

If ADHD is the idea of your son's behaviour we have a centre where kids can go to try if there are allergies that make them behave more impulsive and overly active.
They have good results although it is not accepted by a lot of people. But the research made the Lancet.

I admire this but only have a problem with the method. A kid in research needs to immediately restrict most foods and I myself find that traumatic and needlessly upsetting.
You can also work you re way back and take more fooditems, especially those who are known to be hyperallergenic, from the diet and restrict till the level that is needed, or you can maybe see advancement if you replace with hypo allergenic food.

But everything around food has an odour of speculation, trials and believe. It is not like math.

There are still people that don't believe in allergy or 'believe' in theories that are controversial to yours and want to impose them on you.

is Wonder

In your first message you said: "because we do not force our son to do things that he REALLY doesn't want.".

Really? I cann't believe this. Every child has to do things he doesn't like. Like giving a hand to parents while walking near a street with cars, don't be aggressive to other children, going te school, listen to teachers etc. etc.
I think most dutch schools are not very strict. In all countries around us schools are considerd more strict (germany, belgium, france), and less adaptive to children.

Your son is only four years old and there are already two schools he don't fit in. I think it is a good advise to let hem go to the kabouterhuis. This wil have smaller groups so he get's more attention.

Another option is paying yourself for a private school with small groups.

Do you as parents speak any Dutch already?

languae

Of course there is al lot more to say, but I don't write english goed enough to do this. Do you read any Dutch?

V@@s

De resultaten van Google translate zijn goed genoeg om te begrijpen wat er staat, kun je je tekst gewoon in het nederlands opstellen.

Vrije School

https://www.iaswece.org/asia/japan-4/

In Japan you have the 'Vrije School' these days. As an antagonist to the too rigid and resultdriven education of children. Or perceived as a more western style of educating, although in the 'west' it is not seen that way. In the West, theoretically, it is seen as a more nature and natural living oriented way of upbringing more concordant with the development of humankind in general and of small children.
Named Waldorf, Anthroposophical, Rudolf Steiner, or Steiner.
But tho be honest, Vrije Scholen in the Netherlands struggle to keep up with their mission since the gouvernement keeps regulating and demanding the endresults requiring testing even from toddlers. But at least you will find more parents with a worldview like yours. And staff.

be honest

Vrije scholen in the Netherlands are not free for children. Free only refer to the freedom of schools to teach children in their own way. They are for children very strict in the idea how children should develop.

Here in town

There is a schakeklas for children older then 6 and one for group 1/2. But I think it could be different elsewhere.

If the parents don’t sprak Dutch, there are more ways to improve the skills of the yuong boy.

Years ago we moved abroad. Child went to preschool. At home we followed the ‘ Dutch at home / English at school’- concept. Once child asked me when we went home. ( the Netherlands). Her classmates were lauching while they were watching a funky movie. She felt lonely. I skipped the concept and started to read books and let child watch tv- programs to improve the skills.
If you are not able to do those things, take contact with a Japanese student who speaks Dutch.

Children can get very tired or cranky when they can’t play with others. Speciale when those kids aren’t eager to play with him. Improve the vocabulaire So he at least can communicate.

Communication

Have hearing and sight of your son tested very well. Problems in this area are sometimes overlooked since for a child it is 'normal' but can lead to behavioural problems if a kid needs to improvise constantly with not enough input from what he hears or sees. You can start to have this done with the practice of your gp.
It is possible that your son already had the 4year visit to the consultationbureau/GGD in your area. But these days they are more in the emotional development of children and in 'safety' or childprotection than in the professional evalution of hearing and sight as they used to perform.
They did not discover the problems with seeing of my son and daughter, so I had to initiate my own search with them when they had problems in school.
Son was rather easy he just needed strong glasses. Daughter had also problems seeing depth, and only much later the opticien, not even the medical eyedoctor, found out that she had inner strabismus and found better solutions. It still could be improved and we are considering a visit to the nearby eyeclinic.
I can't stress the necessity to get ears and eyes tested enough. I have more examples in my circles where a lack of leaded to behavioural problems.

agree with Vlinder

"But there is a problem with your child and not with his Dutch fellow pupils. They can be alone in the classroom. The do not spit on the floor or throw with toys (well some will probably do).

You son's actions have nothing to do with the eating habits of Dutch children."

Especially considering she thinks her son's eating habits are superior, but then she describes his inferior behaviour. It doesn't make sense.

Why can all these children, who she thinks are not eating well, behave themselves at school? Why can her son, who is apparently being fed properly, not behave himself?

Either there is absolutely no connection, or her eating habits are not as good as she thinks I would say what he eats is entirely irrelevant. Focusing on what other people eat, who do not misbehave, is not going to help her son in his school career.

(I have to add that in the average school there are usually quite a few nationalities. They do not all eat the same things. They are not all brought up the same way. They do not all speak the same language at home. Yet for some reason the great majority can function normally in kindergarten.)

I would advise enrolling the kid in a school and not setting foot in the building herself, but it might be too late. Which normal school could want this child now? And there are only two weeks left...

communication

'However, I am not trying to get popular with my remarks.
I am just simply stating my thoughts and observation.'
So am I. And I know I won't stand the judgement of AnneJ, with my comment. Acoording to Anne J I am 'regular'(=not good), conservative and strict with backword ideas.
Her advice is not to discuss your ideas in public, only to the group believers, that are superior tot the 'regular' people, people 'with more educated skills'.
Yet, you came to this forum, this forum is not exclusive for ons group of parents. so you will find 'regular' parents with there own ideas.
I find it important to tell you how other people can react on your remarks, because the reaction is important in your communication with other peolpe, like school, neighbours, docters, psychologists. So I want you to know honestly how (most of the) people will react on your statement.
It is not important if you are popular. But I also want to warn you: you are in a danger zone.
From the outside, peolpe will see this: a child with serious behavioral problems, a mother who has reasons (excuses) for her child's behavior, a mother with explicit but unproven ideas about education and food, the child visited already two schools, they see a father who gives the son water after him spitting on the teacher (perhaps they didn't hear what the father said to the son). Then the school gives an advice regarding the problems: kabouterhuis. Now it seems that the parents won't accept that advice.
All these things together might draw the attention of people that are concerned about the wellbeing of the child.
You don't want that attention, believe me, you don't want that attention.
My concern is: what can you do to stay out of special concerns about your child.
In order to do so, you will have to understand what brings up those concerns. And so you will have to understand what is happening in communication.
Lock yourself up in a small circle of 'believers' wouldn't be my advice.

Tsjor

Behavioral problems

A young child, living with his parents in a by the parents controlled situation finds two adults, who want to do everything in order to undersstand and support their child as best as they can.
Out of that restricted order, the child has to do with other peolpe, other children. Some bahvior that is well understood by the parents is seen as a problem bij people outside the restricted family-situation. Yet, the child will have to live also outside the family, so the problems should be taken serious as a signal, a question. An observation shuld be considerd not as a statement, but as a question: is what we see a problem or not?

The observations you've heard until now about your son are:
- making strange noices in the first days at school (do you recognize it, at home or in another situation, did it last for more days, did it have anything to do with language?)
- not being able to sit still (same questions);
- leaving the room and running through the school;
- not being able to follow lessons other than playing hours (who's decision was it to diminish the present hours, why was that decision taken, what problem would be resolved by this decision, is the problem resolved);
- getting angry when he has to go home (did he want to stay or didn't he want to go home);
- expressing his anger by spitting on a teacher (how is he expressing his anger in other situations).

Living with the child, you will have find a lot of ways of dealing with the child yourselve. But maybe you can take a step back and reflect on your own history with your son: what problems did you find and had to solve, specially the problems you've solved succesfully in your own house. Maybe these problems are recognizable with the problems you've heard so far from the teachers at school. Maybe there are more observations of problems you've solved but are additional to what school describes.

The first reaction of most of the parent will be: oh no, not my child, my child is beautiful, smart, handsom, joyfull, talented. He is not a problem. The teachers and the other kids are the problem.

I would advice you to take a moment of reflection. Trying to look at your child with other perpectives and other questions.

Tsjor
-

Next step

A important question is: does your son have a serious behavorial problem?

AnneJ suggests: ADHD, and her suggestions (including homeschooling) are based on that premise. But it is still a question. Is there a problem, is it ADHD or something else? Do you want to know this? Do you want to find it out by yourselve? Maybe you should start with your own docter.

The school thinks there is a serious beharioral problem. They advice het kabouterhuis. Is is helpfull to follow that advice? What can kabouterhuis mean for your child? Can they give observations, solutions? Is it tricky not to follow that advice? Is there a possibility that school will notice that you're not following the advice and so you're not handling according to the wellbeing of the child?

You seem to think there is no problem with the child, but there is an problem with the school and the other children. A change of school might be the solution. You are now considering an international school. Other people advice de Vrije school. Or a 'normal' school with special care for children who have to learn dutch. Within a couple of weeks you will have to decide.

Some remarks are about your way of educating your child. You make a connection between food and behavior. If there is a connection, I would be pleased to give you my recipe of pastasauce with a lot of fresh vegetables and advice bread with cheese for breakfast, because I don't recognise the behavioral problmens your child has. There are already two solutions mentioned: you give him already supplements for vitamin B and D'; AnneJ suggests an examination for possible allergies.
My advice would be to be more respectfull to other parents and there eating habbits, since there is no proven superior food pattern. The different visions come and go like the weather: bread is good, bread is wrong, milk is good, milk is wrong, cooking is good, raw food is good etc. Everybody tries to find the best they can considering there possibility's and experiences.

And there are remarks about how you want to correct your child. You've chosen a vision, that suites you well. But is it effective enough, considering the behavior of your child in other situations? You're choice is based on a theoretical point of view. The danger is, that your child will be subject to an experiment: does this view work?
Mu advice would be to observate and talk with other parents: how do they do it; build up your own opinion, without judging other people (They act like this, I wouldn't do that), read also critical points of view and never stop looking at your child, what is good for him.

Your son is too precious to experiment, yet, every parent has to experiment with their first child (and unfortunately, with the next child you find other problems and questions). Never being absolutely sure about the best way to handle is given with being a parent.

That's why I find this forum so important. I hope you'll find it too.

Tsjor

Doet me denken

Doet me denken aan dat Japanse gezin uit Brabant, met de ondervoede zielige kinderen. Blijf vooral in je eigen bubbel, met oogkleppen op! Arm kind.